Fountain vs Outerlimits

[Ben Mazur]

There has been a lively debate here in the States about Foutain vs Outerlimits in the Super Vee Class. Now it's taken on an international aspect since a factory backed Fountain has just been annouced as a participant in Evolution Class.

Should be interesting to see how the factory backed Outerlimits fares against it - or vice versa.

[Dragon]

Should be interesting since Reggie Fountain and Mike Fiore have had many lively debates, where Mike refused to race in OSS because the sport is effectively run by Reggie :eek:

[Ben Mazur]

Should be interesting since Reggie Fountain and Mike Fiore have had many lively debates, where Mike refused to race in OSS because the sport is effectively run by Reggie :eek:

Watch it now Dragon, for some of the posters on OSO "them might be fightin words" :D

[Dragon]

Even better when you can sit on the sidelines and watch the fight :D

[louietherigger]

Should be interesting since Reggie Fountain and Mike Fiore have had many lively debates, where Mike refused to race in OSS because the sport is effectively run by Reggie :eek:

Dragon they both race in OSS, I think its SBI your refering to. Fountain kicked butt the 1st race, now OL has evened the score, it's 1 all. As for anyone being in control of an event, it appears to me that when Mike isn't in control he would go home, but that was then, they just ran a great race and came out on top (unofficial results). Just need more manufacturers stepping up to the plate.

[Ben Mazur]

Welcome to Proprider Louie.

What part of Long Island are you from? I grew up in Oyster Bay.

[Dragon]

Dragon they both race in OSS, I think its SBI your refering to. Fountain kicked butt the 1st race, now OL has evened the score, it's 1 all. As for anyone being in control of an event, it appears to me that when Mike isn't in control he would go home, but that was then, they just ran a great race and came out on top (unofficial results). Just need more manufacturers stepping up to the plate.

You're right .. SBI is what I meant, not OSS
Agree about needing more manufacturers ... we have the same problem over here ... good news is we now have Outlerlimits, Fountain, Donzi, Skater, Dragon, Buzzi and Hustler with teams out, so getting better. Shame we can't get Mercury, Teague, Sterling, Chief, Ilmor and the other engine manufacturers more engaged.

I'll watch the SBI carefully this year then ... my perception from talking to a lot of folks has been pretty different to yours, but I guess the only way they can prove it either way is on the water!

I guess you rig boats ... do you race as well?

[SHARKEYMARINE]

Louie flies Strictly Business ...:D

[Boatless]

Interesting.

Merc is sponsoring OL with the engines/powertrain. We all know that the 662 is the same engine as the Merc 700 which in reality is "suppose" to be 700 hp net. This means the engine produces an honest 740-750 hp in order to compensate for the loss in the outdrive.

Now Fountain has a naturally aspirated 625 or 700? Less torque, smaller powerband. Yet the boat performed in its first race. Is this a new boat or a boat that was raced in the states?

If I had to make a guess, I'd say the OL has the weight to match a 662 hp when in reality, it has an inaccurate weight to hp combination.

Edge to OL

[Ben Mazur]

Interesting.

Merc is sponsoring OL with the engines/powertrain. We all know that the 662 is the same engine as the Merc 700 which in reality is "suppose" to be 700 hp net. This means the engine produces an honest 740-750 hp in order to compensate for the loss in the outdrive.

Now Fountain has a naturally aspirated 625 or 700? Less torque, smaller powerband. Yet the boat performed in its first race. Is this a new boat or a boat that was raced in the states?

If I had to make a guess, I'd say the OL has the weight to match a 662 hp when in reality, it has an inaccurate weight to hp combination.

Edge to OL

Welcome to Proprider Boatless.

I was under the impression that 'King of Shaves/Fountain Worldwide' was a new boat but this wouldn't be the first (nor 1000th) time that I have been wrong. Dragon would probably know for sure. He would also probably know why they had to add weight to the 'Outerlimits/Lucas Oil' in Naples. My guess would be that it was simply underweight for Evo Class which specifies a minimum of 3.5kg per hp.

[KLAATU]

OH NO !!! :eek: LOL , I knew as soon as I saw the " OL /Fountain " thread that " JAW'S ( aka sharky ) would be present :D

I am happy to see OL join the ( factory ) fight . However, JAW"S can get a little out there with his " interpretations " of the facts .


Hes a good guy tho . :D

[Ben Mazur]

Welcome to Proprider KLAATU. What do you think of the P1 racing so far this year?

[SHARKEYMARINE]

OH NO !!! :eek: LOL , I knew as soon as I saw the " OL /Fountain " thread that " JAW'S ( aka sharky ) would be present :D

I am happy to see OL join the ( factory ) fight . However, JAW"S can get a little out there with his " interpretations " of the facts .


Hes a good guy tho . :D

Oh come on Klaatu,

Facts are facts. They are either true or not true.
If it weren't true then obviously they are not factual....

There is no room for interpretation.... :D

Welcome aboard!:)

[Dragon]

Welcome to Proprider Boatless.

I was under the impression that 'King of Shaves/Fountain Worldwide' was a new boat but this wouldn't be the first (nor 1000th) time that I have been wrong. Dragon would probably know for sure. He would also probably know why they had to add weight to the 'Outerlimits/Lucas Oil' in Naples. My guess would be that it was simply underweight for Evo Class which specifies a minimum of 3.5kg per hp.

The Fountain is a Brand New boat, purpose built for P1 (i.e. stronger and heavier) for Craig Wilson.

A number of the boats had to add weight in Naples, as the TCC (technical compliance committee) had been doing some homework on the actual HP ratings on the engines as they came out of the factory. So ... multiplying this new hp rating against the 3.5kg rule (Evo, 4.5 SS) meant they had to add weight.

They are threatening to use Dynos going forward as some of the boats are "apparently" not the hp they claim to be.

[SHARKEYMARINE]

They are threatening to use Dynos going forward as some of the boats are "apparently" not the hp they claim to be.
Thanks for the info Dragon.
I hope they do go to the use of the Dynos or whatever it takes to keep a level, fair playing field.

[KLAATU]

I think its great . I follow the tv coverage when available .

You have a great following ,with ..really... a minimum of boats .
I love seeing the big water again . Some like the flat better . I dont .
Speed on water is difficult to present on the tv . The flying hulls hold my interest well . Of all my tapes of races here in the states , I find that i only replay over, and over ,the big water races . :D
You have some big water up where you are . I ran " (devils gate , or hole ?" )
in kens 38 phantom V ,WOW that was confusing water to say the least .More fun too . I cant imagine those 18 footers you all had .
Keep it up . Were watching .

Shark , you know im only messin with you . Its only normal to lean further toward those who we root and support vs those we dont . Thats what makes a fan a fan .

[Dragon]

If you have access to Sky, Naples will be on (GMT):

31/05 @ 18:30 on SKY SPORTS 2
31/05 @ 22:00 on SKY SPORTS 2
01/06 @ 01:00 on SKY SPORTS 3
01/06 @ 06:00 on SKY SPORTS 1
01/06 @ 12:00 on SKY SPORTS 3
01/06 @ 17:00 on SKY SPORTS XTRA
02/07 @ 05:30 on SKY SPORTS XTRA
02/07 @ 16:30 on SKY SPORTS XTRA

If not, should be posted on the P1 site soon:

http://www.powerboatp1.com/public/videos2007.asp

[SHARKEYMARINE]

Shark , you know im only messin with you . .

Of course! :D

Thanks again for the update Dragon! :)

[Boatless]

The Fountain is a Brand New boat, purpose built for P1 (i.e. stronger and heavier) for Craig Wilson.

A number of the boats had to add weight in Naples, as the TCC (technical compliance committee) had been doing some homework on the actual HP ratings on the engines as they came out of the factory. So ... multiplying this new hp rating against the 3.5kg rule (Evo, 4.5 SS) meant they had to add weight.

They are threatening to use Dynos going forward as some of the boats are "apparently" not the hp they claim to be.

So I was kinda right?

The Fountain with Merc #6's must have been pretty dialed in for its first race. I was wondering if it was a new boat or a race boat for another team prior.

[SHARKEYMARINE]

So I was kinda right?

The Fountain with Merc #6's must have been pretty dialed in for its first race. I was wondering if it was a new boat or a race boat for another team prior.
As far as I know it doesn't have 6's. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it has Arneson surface drives.

[Boatless]

As far as I know it doesn't have 6's. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it has Arneson surface drives.

Wow, a real under dog then.

[Dragon]

Sharky is correct ...

The Fountain has Arneson Drives and the Outerlimits has #6s
Surface drives are much more common here on the race boats, and seem to work pretty well

[Boatless]

Sharky is correct ...

The Fountain has Arneson Drives and the Outerlimits has #6s
Surface drives are much more common here on the race boats, and seem to work pretty well

In the states they are brained washed to Merc.:confused:

[louietherigger]

In the states they are brained washed to Merc.:confused:

We are kinda a captive audience lol. A lot of boats ran faster with the Arnesons, Especially Fountains 42', Taboo runs them I believe here in SV.

[Boatless]

We are kinda a captive audience lol. A lot of boats ran faster with the Arnesons, Especially Fountains 42', Taboo runs them I believe here in SV.

Only in SBI as OSS will not allow anything other than a Merc for the most part.

[Ben Mazur]

Sharky is correct ...

The Fountain has Arneson Drives and the Outerlimits has #6s
Surface drives are much more common here on the race boats, and seem to work pretty well

Pics from Proprider member Tony Davis

[SHARKEYMARINE]

That boat shouldn't even be in that building !!!:rolleyes:

Don't they see the sign in the background? :eek:




.
:D :D :D :D

[Boatless]

Wow, it does have Arnesons.

Nice to see someone succeed without a Merc.

Need more boats like this out there.

[Gordon McMath]

Hey Ben,if the Outerlimits is using the new 662 would it not also be using the nxt drive since the 662 is a effectively a detuned 700 ?

[Ben Mazur]

The EU662SCi comes with either the NXT or NXTSSM drive. The NXTSSM uses the dry sump SIX drive coupled with the NXT transom plate and NXT dry sump transmission.

[Boatless]

I don't think that Merc is actually detuning the 700 to make it a 662 for the P1 racing which is exempt from EU certification.

In fact, the 700 is actually more like a 750 as the 700 is a net hp rating not a gross hp rating and that rating was with a NXT drive. It is not as efficient as the SSM#6 unit which OL is using as the boat has crash boxes, something that the NXT does not incorporate.

Remember, this is the same boat that ran in the States with 525's. They just changed engines and setup and took it to P1.

[Ben Mazur]

Another pic of the 'business end' of King of Shaves.

[Chris Witty]

I'm glad 'King of Shaves' is being photographed so often and the photos posted on this site. I can therefore make regular checks to see if any bits are missing! It's like having CCTV. We're in the process of waiting to move the race boat to the Fountain UK dealer's premises but are appreciative of the attention the boat has got inside the MDL shed.

[Dragon]

I don't think that Merc is actually detuning the 700 to make it a 662 for the P1 racing which is exempt from EU certification.

In fact, the 700 is actually more like a 750 as the 700 is a net hp rating not a gross hp rating and that rating was with a NXT drive. It is not as efficient as the SSM#6 unit which OL is using as the boat has crash boxes, something that the NXT does not incorporate.

Remember, this is the same boat that ran in the States with 525's. They just changed engines and setup and took it to P1.

Interesting ... as this is not my understanding ...
I thought the NXT was more efficient as it uses less horsepower than the #6.
I have seen no difference between a crash box and the Cyborg Hydraulic boxes in terms of performance, and on the 525s, which are nowhere close to hitting the limits on either box ... I would probably go for NXTs another time.

Only downside on the NXTs as I understand it is they give stern lift ... not a good thing and there have been some teething issues.

Interested in anything else you have heard tho, as everything NXT for me is second hand :eek:

[Boatless]

Interesting ... as this is not my understanding ...
I thought the NXT was more efficient as it uses less horsepower than the #6.
I have seen no difference between a crash box and the Cyborg Hydraulic boxes in terms of performance, and on the 525s, which are nowhere close to hitting the limits on either box ... I would probably go for NXTs another time.

Only downside on the NXTs as I understand it is they give stern lift ... not a good thing and there have been some teething issues.

Interested in anything else you have heard tho, as everything NXT for me is second hand :eek:

The problem with the NXT drive is that it was designed to fit in between the Bravo and the SSM#6 drive unit with a HP rating of 700 hp (net). Merc has had quite a few problems with the transmission portion of the NXT drive and that is only 700 (750 gross) hp. If someone wants to purchase this package and then in the future add more hp, they must remove the entire transom assembly and replace everything with a SSM#6, not ignoring the fact that the engines will have to be relocated as well. Big money to do this.

They have seemed to design the consumer into a corner when someone purchases one as they are on the limit of handling the power and there is no room for growth.

Now the hydrodynamics of the drive unit are a bit strange as well. Looks like Merc copied Weissman's drive which Weissman abandoned for a more conventional shape.

No one is seeming to have any luck with the handling of these NXT drives. I'd stick with the SSM#6 if I were to choose the Merc products.